Discussion:
Post-editing white and black point of a icc-profile
Daniel Pfeiffer
2013-12-18 22:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

is it there any way utilizing argyllcms tools to edit the white and or
black point of a existing printer profile?
Overriding the measured values with defined white/black values at the time
of profile creation could be another useful option.
My Application is textile printing on slightly different colored substrates
of the same kind.

Best regards,

Daniel Pfeiffer
Nikolay Pokhilchenko
2013-12-19 08:08:27 UTC
Permalink
is it there any way utilizing argyllcms tools to edit the white and or black point of a existing printer profile? As far as I know none.
Overriding the measured values with defined white/black values at the time of profile creation could be another useful option.
My Application is textile printing on slightly different colored substrates of the same kind. It's hard to recommend something without knowing the problems You've encountered. Can You describe the problems need to be solved with an examples, scans, photos (the links please, not the files in e-mails).
Graeme Gill
2014-01-06 06:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Daniel Pfeiffer wrote:

Hi,
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
is it there any way utilizing argyllcms tools to edit the white and or
black point of a existing printer profile?
Not currently. The emphasis in ArgyllCMS is characterizing a devices
actual behavior, not tweaking it manually.
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
Overriding the measured values with defined white/black values at the time
of profile creation could be another useful option.
There is no easy way of doing this. The white and black points are
typically the result of fitting a model to all the measured data points.
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
My Application is textile printing on slightly different colored substrates
of the same kind.
Perhaps it would help if you describe the problem you are trying to solve.

Graeme Gill.
Daniel Pfeiffer
2014-01-06 10:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
thanks for the replies and a happy new year!

In Profilemaker Profile-Editor, there is a option to alter the white point
of icc-profiles. Somethimes, this can be useful if a different stock of
paper comes with a slightly more or less yellowish tint without
re-profiling the substrate. To do so, I take a number of readings on the
stock, average the results and enter them as new white-point. This helped
me in the past for some minor substrate-issues.

The other thing i'm thinking about is to reduce the number of patches in
testcharts when profiling substrates like ceramic, glass or textiles.
On objects like bottles, cans or boxes with very little space for printing
charts on, i would prefer to take multiple spot readings on black and
substrate to enter them before or after the profiling process rather than
waste space for redundant b/w patches in a test chart.

Best regards,
Daniel Pfeiffer
Post by Graeme Gill
Hi,
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
is it there any way utilizing argyllcms tools to edit the white and or
black point of a existing printer profile?
Not currently. The emphasis in ArgyllCMS is characterizing a devices
actual behavior, not tweaking it manually.
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
Overriding the measured values with defined white/black values at the
time
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
of profile creation could be another useful option.
There is no easy way of doing this. The white and black points are
typically the result of fitting a model to all the measured data points.
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
My Application is textile printing on slightly different colored
substrates
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
of the same kind.
Perhaps it would help if you describe the problem you are trying to solve.
Graeme Gill.
Graeme Gill
2014-01-06 11:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Daniel Pfeiffer wrote:

Hi,
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
In Profilemaker Profile-Editor, there is a option to alter the white point
of icc-profiles. Somethimes, this can be useful if a different stock of
paper comes with a slightly more or less yellowish tint without
re-profiling the substrate. To do so, I take a number of readings on the
stock, average the results and enter them as new white-point. This helped
me in the past for some minor substrate-issues.
Hmm. I wouldn't expect that to work very well, unless you are using
the profile in absolute rendering intent mode. The reason is
that by default the profile will be white point relative, so
any slight shift in substrate color will tend to have little
effect on the result.

[ I did write a tool to more accurately shift the substrate color
and other print process characteristics of a set of measurements using
spectral reflection decomposition, but haven't at this stage released it. ]
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
The other thing i'm thinking about is to reduce the number of patches in
testcharts when profiling substrates like ceramic, glass or textiles.
On objects like bottles, cans or boxes with very little space for printing
charts on, i would prefer to take multiple spot readings on black and
substrate to enter them before or after the profiling process rather than
waste space for redundant b/w patches in a test chart.
For creating profiles with an absolute minimum number of patches,
then a radically different profiling approach is really needed, one that
models the underlying physics more closely, rather than simply
measuring the device response in great detail.

You can try such an approach with the ArgyllCMS tools by making use
of the MPP profiler. You could try a quite small number of test patches
(16 - 100 patches), create an MPP profile from that set, and then
convert it to an ICC profile by:

Creating a dummy .ti1 of test points (5-10000 points)
Using fakeread to create a .ti3 file from the MPP
Create an ICC profile in the usual way.

Graeme Gill.
Daniel Pfeiffer
2014-01-14 21:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Graeme,

thanks for your suggestion.
I was playing with a number of small-number test charts and got acceptable
results for my application using a chart with about 120 patches. By
manually adding some patches, colored close to the desired or more critical
target colors have improved the results.
From my point of view, an option to manually override the printer profiles
white point with a defined value would be very welcome. Even just to reduce
the source-white-simulation in images converted for absolute intended
output.

Best regards,

Daniel Pfeiffer
Hi,
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
In Profilemaker Profile-Editor, there is a option to alter the white
point
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
of icc-profiles. Somethimes, this can be useful if a different stock of
paper comes with a slightly more or less yellowish tint without
re-profiling the substrate. To do so, I take a number of readings on the
stock, average the results and enter them as new white-point. This helped
me in the past for some minor substrate-issues.
Hmm. I wouldn't expect that to work very well, unless you are using
the profile in absolute rendering intent mode. The reason is
that by default the profile will be white point relative, so
any slight shift in substrate color will tend to have little
effect on the result.
[ I did write a tool to more accurately shift the substrate color
and other print process characteristics of a set of measurements using
spectral reflection decomposition, but haven't at this stage released it. ]
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
The other thing i'm thinking about is to reduce the number of patches in
testcharts when profiling substrates like ceramic, glass or textiles.
On objects like bottles, cans or boxes with very little space for
printing
Post by Daniel Pfeiffer
charts on, i would prefer to take multiple spot readings on black and
substrate to enter them before or after the profiling process rather than
waste space for redundant b/w patches in a test chart.
For creating profiles with an absolute minimum number of patches,
then a radically different profiling approach is really needed, one that
models the underlying physics more closely, rather than simply
measuring the device response in great detail.
You can try such an approach with the ArgyllCMS tools by making use
of the MPP profiler. You could try a quite small number of test patches
(16 - 100 patches), create an MPP profile from that set, and then
Creating a dummy .ti1 of test points (5-10000 points)
Using fakeread to create a .ti3 file from the MPP
Create an ICC profile in the usual way.
Graeme Gill.
Alexey Gribunin
2014-01-15 07:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Hello Daniel!

Sometimes I have the same need to adjust black and white points.
If Graeme will release his tool for accurately shift of substrate color
by spectral reflection decomposition then it would be great!

Now I make it directly in Lab measurements in EXCEL BEFORE icc profile
creation.

I adjust L-value of black and white points by scaling it in EXCEL with
broken curve from original value to the needed one. At the same time the
medium tone L values stay the same, let's say from L 30...40 till
60...70 (The curve is adjustable, I can choose these values). A and B
values also stay the same.

If you need to adjust the COLOR of white point and to put it to all
profile tables, then it's little bit tricky. You can do it in two step
way - create icc profile, change WP Lab values in ProfileEditor, convert
CMYK testchart to Lab with fakeread (or with ColorLab) with Absolute
Colorimetric RI, then create icc profile again.

Another way (even more tricky) is to edit measurements in EXCEL with 3D
table. Black point color also can be changed with 3D table.

Best regards,
Alexey Gribunin, UNIT Color Technologies, Moscow, Russia.
From my point of view, an option to manually override the printer
profiles white point with a defined value would be very welcome. Even
just to reduce the source-white-simulation in images converted for
absolute intended output.
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